[mpich-discuss] mpich on Mac os x
Wesley Bland
wbland at mcs.anl.gov
Mon Jul 8 12:22:55 CDT 2013
Pavan is probably right that this a problem with the application you're trying to run. You should probably talk to them. However, if you're trying to write an MPI problem, you must understand how MPI_COMM_FREE works. Here's a couple of good links:
http://www.mcs.anl.gov/research/projects/mpi/www/www3/MPI_Comm_free.html
http://mpi.deino.net/mpi_functions/MPI_Comm_free.html
On Jul 8, 2013, at 11:56 AM, Jeff Hammond <jeff.science at gmail.com> wrote:
> Do you understand the different between a Fortran procedure/subroutine
> and a variable value?
>
> You cannot set an MPI communicator equal to a subroutine. That makes
> no sense and the compiler is rightfully complaining about it.
>
> Jeff
>
> On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:32 AM, Reem Alraddadi <raba500 at york.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Wesley,
>>
>> How could I do that? as I read in the internet. I have to set:
>> include "mpif.h"
>> Call MPI_COMM_FREE
>>
>> I found where I can set that in FLASH code ( I have attached the file) So I
>> set:
>> integer, parameter :: FLASH_COMM = MPI_COMM_FREE
>> but I got an error when I compile the code:
>>
>> Included at Driver_abortFlash.F90:34:
>>
>> integer, parameter :: FLASH_COMM = MPI_COMM_FREE
>> 1
>> Error: Symbol 'flash_comm' at (1) already has basic type of INTEGER
>> make: *** [Driver_abortFlash.o] Error 1
>>
>> the code used MPI_COMM_WORLD.
>> So is there a way to fix that?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Reem
>>
>>
>>
>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 10:25:38 -0500
>>> From: Wesley Bland <wbland at mcs.anl.gov>
>>> To: discuss at mpich.org
>>> Subject: Re: [mpich-discuss] discuss Digest, Vol 9, Issue 13
>>> Message-ID: <9A8EEBB2-72BB-429B-9368-150983B1C283 at mcs.anl.gov>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> That's the correct way to set that environment variable, but I would have
>>> to agree with Pavan here. If you're running into the cap on context id's
>>> (especially with so few processes) it would seem that you're creating a lot
>>> of communicators that you probably don't need. Are you sure that you're
>>> freeing them correctly after use?
>>>
>>> Wesley
>>>
>>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 10:05 AM, Reem Alraddadi <raba500 at york.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Wesley.
>>>> I wrote the following:
>>>> mpirun --np 4 --env MPIR_PARAM_CTXID_EAGER_SIZE 1 ./flash4
>>>> but the error still the same. Did I do it in the wrong way??
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Reem
>>>>
>>>> Message: 5
>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 08:14:48 -0500
>>>> From: Wesley Bland <wbland at mcs.anl.gov>
>>>> To: discuss at mpich.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [mpich-discuss] mpich on Mac os x
>>>> Message-ID: <8DC984B2-4E4B-4BFE-806E-203463A7A4E4 at mcs.anl.gov>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>>>
>>>> It seems that you're creating more communicators than MPICH can handle.
>>>> It's possible that you might be able to get around this by setting the
>>>> environment variable MPIR_PARAM_CTXID_EAGER_SIZE to something smaller than
>>>> its default (which is 2). That frees up a few more communicators, but there
>>>> is a pathological case where even with fewer communicators than the max,
>>>> MPICH won't be able to agree on a new communicator id when needed. Try
>>>> changing that environment variable and see if that fixes things.
>>>>
>>>> Wesley
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 5:33 AM, Reem Alraddadi <raba500 at york.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>> I am using mpich-3.0.4 on Mac os x version 10.7.5 to run FLASH code.
>>>>> It works fine in the beginning of the run and then I got the following
>>>>> error:
>>>>>
>>>>> Fatal error in MPI_Comm_create: Other MPI error, error stack:
>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(600).................:
>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(comm=0x84000002, group=0xc8001349, new_comm=0x7fff606a8614)
>>>>> failed
>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(577).................:
>>>>> MPIR_Comm_create_intra(241)..........:
>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid(799)..............:
>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid_sparse_group(1146): Cannot allocate context ID
>>>>> because of fragmentation (169/2048 free on this process; ignore_id=0)
>>>>> Fatal error in MPI_Comm_create: Other MPI error, error stack:
>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(600).................:
>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(comm=0x84000002, group=0xc80012b6, new_comm=0x7fff670cc614)
>>>>> failed
>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(577).................:
>>>>> MPIR_Comm_create_intra(241)..........:
>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid(799)..............:
>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid_sparse_group(1146): Cannot allocate context ID
>>>>> because of fragmentation (316/2048 free on this process; ignore_id=0)
>>>>> Fatal error in MPI_Comm_create: Other MPI error, error stack:
>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(600).................:
>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(comm=0x84000004, group=0xc800000e, new_comm=0x7fff629d5614)
>>>>> failed
>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(577).................:
>>>>> MPIR_Comm_create_intra(241)..........:
>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid(799)..............:
>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid_sparse_group(1146): Cannot allocate context ID
>>>>> because of fragmentation (2020/2048 free on this process; ignore_id=0)
>>>>> Fatal error in MPI_Comm_create: Other MPI error, error stack:
>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(600).................:
>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(comm=0x84000002, group=0xc8000020, new_comm=0x7fff639ae614)
>>>>> failed
>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(577).................:
>>>>> MPIR_Comm_create_intra(241)..........:
>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid(799)..............:
>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid_sparse_group(1146): Cannot allocate context ID
>>>>> because of fragmentation (2002/2048 free on this process; ignore_id=0
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a way to fix that ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Reem
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 9:17 AM, Pavan Balaji <balaji at mcs.anl.gov> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Also make sure you are freeing unused communicators.
>>>>
>>>> -- Pavan
>>>>
>>>> On 07/08/2013 08:14 AM, Wesley Bland wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems that you're creating more communicators than MPICH can handle.
>>>>> It's possible that you might be able to get around this by setting the
>>>>> environment variable MPIR_PARAM_CTXID_EAGER_SIZE to something smaller
>>>>> than
>>>>> its default (which is 2). That frees up a few more communicators, but
>>>>> there
>>>>> is a pathological case where even with fewer communicators than the
>>>>> max,
>>>>> MPICH won't be able to agree on a new communicator id when needed. Try
>>>>> changing that environment variable and see if that fixes things.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wesley
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 5:33 AM, Reem Alraddadi <raba500 at york.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>> I am using mpich-3.0.4 on Mac os x version 10.7.5 to run FLASH code.
>>>>>> It
>>>>>> works fine in the beginning of the run and then I got the following
>>>>>> error:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fatal error in MPI_Comm_create: Other MPI error, error stack:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(600).................:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(comm=0x84000002,
>>>>>> group=0xc8001349, new_comm=0x7fff606a8614) failed
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(577).................:
>>>>>> MPIR_Comm_create_intra(241)..........:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid(799)..............:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid_sparse_group(1146): Cannot allocate context ID
>>>>>> because of fragmentation (169/2048 free on this process; ignore_id=0)
>>>>>> Fatal error in MPI_Comm_create: Other MPI error, error stack:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(600).................:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(comm=0x84000002,
>>>>>> group=0xc80012b6, new_comm=0x7fff670cc614) failed
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(577).................:
>>>>>> MPIR_Comm_create_intra(241)..........:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid(799)..............:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid_sparse_group(1146): Cannot allocate context ID
>>>>>> because of fragmentation (316/2048 free on this process; ignore_id=0)
>>>>>> Fatal error in MPI_Comm_create: Other MPI error, error stack:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(600).................:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(comm=0x84000004,
>>>>>> group=0xc800000e, new_comm=0x7fff629d5614) failed
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(577).................:
>>>>>> MPIR_Comm_create_intra(241)..........:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid(799)..............:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid_sparse_group(1146): Cannot allocate context ID
>>>>>> because of fragmentation (2020/2048 free on this process; ignore_id=0)
>>>>>> Fatal error in MPI_Comm_create: Other MPI error, error stack:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(600).................:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(comm=0x84000002,
>>>>>> group=0xc8000020, new_comm=0x7fff639ae614) failed
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(577).................:
>>>>>> MPIR_Comm_create_intra(241)..........:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid(799)..............:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid_sparse_group(1146): Cannot allocate context ID
>>>>>> because of fragmentation (2002/2048 free on this process; ignore_id=0
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there a way to fix that ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Reem
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> discuss mailing list discuss at mpich.org
>>>>>> To manage subscription options or unsubscribe:
>>>>>> https://lists.mpich.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> discuss mailing list discuss at mpich.org
>>>>> To manage subscription options or unsubscribe:
>>>>> https://lists.mpich.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Pavan Balaji
>>>> http://www.mcs.anl.gov/~balaji
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> discuss mailing list discuss at mpich.org
>>>> To manage subscription options or unsubscribe:
>>>> https://lists.mpich.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jeff Hammond
>>> jeff.science at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 16:39:03 +0100
>>> From: Reem Alraddadi <raba500 at york.ac.uk>
>>> To: discuss at mpich.org
>>> Subject: [mpich-discuss] mpich on Mac os x
>>> Message-ID:
>>>
>>> <CANKsntEJR0b_TA-tbdBO3fOV2O8PkwTG82a718qZPd3FnEBT3w at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> Hi Pavan,
>>>
>>> Could you explain more what do you mean by that? I am sorry I am still
>>> beginner in MPICH.
>>>
>>> Hi Wesley,
>>> apologize about my first confused reply I have forgotten to change the
>>> subject. However, as I mentioned I wrote the following line:
>>>
>>> mpirun --np 4 --env MPIR_PARAM_CTXID_EAGER_SIZE 1 ./flash4
>>>
>>> I am wondering if I made any mistake here as the problem is still the same
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Reem
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2013 09:17:00 -0500
>>>> From: Pavan Balaji <balaji at mcs.anl.gov>
>>>> To: discuss at mpich.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [mpich-discuss] mpich on Mac os x
>>>> Message-ID: <51DAC9DC.5000502 at mcs.anl.gov>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also make sure you are freeing unused communicators.
>>>>
>>>> -- Pavan
>>>>
>>>> On 07/08/2013 08:14 AM, Wesley Bland wrote:
>>>>> It seems that you're creating more communicators than MPICH can
>>>>> handle.
>>>> It's possible that you might be able to get around this by setting the
>>>> environment variable MPIR_PARAM_CTXID_EAGER_SIZE to something smaller
>>>> than
>>>> its default (which is 2). That frees up a few more communicators, but
>>>> there
>>>> is a pathological case where even with fewer communicators than the max,
>>>> MPICH won't be able to agree on a new communicator id when needed. Try
>>>> changing that environment variable and see if that fixes things.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wesley
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 5:33 AM, Reem Alraddadi <raba500 at york.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>> I am using mpich-3.0.4 on Mac os x version 10.7.5 to run FLASH code.
>>>>>> It
>>>> works fine in the beginning of the run and then I got the following
>>>> error:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fatal error in MPI_Comm_create: Other MPI error, error stack:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(600).................:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(comm=0x84000002,
>>>> group=0xc8001349, new_comm=0x7fff606a8614) failed
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(577).................:
>>>>>> MPIR_Comm_create_intra(241)..........:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid(799)..............:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid_sparse_group(1146): Cannot allocate context ID
>>>> because of fragmentation (169/2048 free on this process; ignore_id=0)
>>>>>> Fatal error in MPI_Comm_create: Other MPI error, error stack:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(600).................:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(comm=0x84000002,
>>>> group=0xc80012b6, new_comm=0x7fff670cc614) failed
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(577).................:
>>>>>> MPIR_Comm_create_intra(241)..........:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid(799)..............:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid_sparse_group(1146): Cannot allocate context ID
>>>> because of fragmentation (316/2048 free on this process; ignore_id=0)
>>>>>> Fatal error in MPI_Comm_create: Other MPI error, error stack:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(600).................:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(comm=0x84000004,
>>>> group=0xc800000e, new_comm=0x7fff629d5614) failed
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(577).................:
>>>>>> MPIR_Comm_create_intra(241)..........:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid(799)..............:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid_sparse_group(1146): Cannot allocate context ID
>>>> because of fragmentation (2020/2048 free on this process; ignore_id=0)
>>>>>> Fatal error in MPI_Comm_create: Other MPI error, error stack:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(600).................:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(comm=0x84000002,
>>>> group=0xc8000020, new_comm=0x7fff639ae614) failed
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(577).................:
>>>>>> MPIR_Comm_create_intra(241)..........:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid(799)..............:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid_sparse_group(1146): Cannot allocate context ID
>>>> because of fragmentation (2002/2048 free on this process; ignore_id=0
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there a way to fix that ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Reem
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> discuss mailing list discuss at mpich.org
>>>>>> To manage subscription options or unsubscribe:
>>>>>> https://lists.mpich.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> discuss mailing list discuss at mpich.org
>>>>> To manage subscription options or unsubscribe:
>>>>> https://lists.mpich.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Pavan Balaji
>>>> http://www.mcs.anl.gov/~balaji
>>>>
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>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 10:53:48 -0500
>>> From: Wesley Bland <wbland at mcs.anl.gov>
>>> To: discuss at mpich.org
>>> Subject: Re: [mpich-discuss] mpich on Mac os x
>>> Message-ID: <CEEC8B51-FFDF-40FE-BE56-E25F9C05BB27 at mcs.anl.gov>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 10:39 AM, Reem Alraddadi <raba500 at york.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Pavan,
>>>>
>>>> Could you explain more what do you mean by that? I am sorry I am still
>>>> beginner in MPICH.
>>>
>>> This isn't specific to MPICH. This would be the case with any MPI
>>> implementation. What he means is that you need to make sure that when you
>>> are done using a communicator, you call MPI_Comm_free(communicator) so MPICH
>>> can free the internal resources used by the communicator. If you never free
>>> your communicators, then you will eventually run out. There is a limited
>>> number of communicators available internally.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Wesley,
>>>> apologize about my first confused reply I have forgotten to change the
>>>> subject. However, as I mentioned I wrote the following line:
>>>>
>>>> mpirun --np 4 --env MPIR_PARAM_CTXID_EAGER_SIZE 1 ./flash4
>>>>
>>>> I am wondering if I made any mistake here as the problem is still the
>>>> same
>>>
>>> Yes, that's the correct way to use it, so that means your problem is
>>> probably what we described above.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Reem
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2013 09:17:00 -0500
>>>> From: Pavan Balaji <balaji at mcs.anl.gov>
>>>> To: discuss at mpich.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [mpich-discuss] mpich on Mac os x
>>>> Message-ID: <51DAC9DC.5000502 at mcs.anl.gov>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also make sure you are freeing unused communicators.
>>>>
>>>> -- Pavan
>>>>
>>>> On 07/08/2013 08:14 AM, Wesley Bland wrote:
>>>>> It seems that you're creating more communicators than MPICH can
>>>>> handle. It's possible that you might be able to get around this by setting
>>>>> the environment variable MPIR_PARAM_CTXID_EAGER_SIZE to something smaller
>>>>> than its default (which is 2). That frees up a few more communicators, but
>>>>> there is a pathological case where even with fewer communicators than the
>>>>> max, MPICH won't be able to agree on a new communicator id when needed. Try
>>>>> changing that environment variable and see if that fixes things.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wesley
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 5:33 AM, Reem Alraddadi <raba500 at york.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>> I am using mpich-3.0.4 on Mac os x version 10.7.5 to run FLASH code.
>>>>>> It works fine in the beginning of the run and then I got the following
>>>>>> error:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fatal error in MPI_Comm_create: Other MPI error, error stack:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(600).................:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(comm=0x84000002, group=0xc8001349, new_comm=0x7fff606a8614)
>>>>>> failed
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(577).................:
>>>>>> MPIR_Comm_create_intra(241)..........:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid(799)..............:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid_sparse_group(1146): Cannot allocate context ID
>>>>>> because of fragmentation (169/2048 free on this process; ignore_id=0)
>>>>>> Fatal error in MPI_Comm_create: Other MPI error, error stack:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(600).................:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(comm=0x84000002, group=0xc80012b6, new_comm=0x7fff670cc614)
>>>>>> failed
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(577).................:
>>>>>> MPIR_Comm_create_intra(241)..........:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid(799)..............:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid_sparse_group(1146): Cannot allocate context ID
>>>>>> because of fragmentation (316/2048 free on this process; ignore_id=0)
>>>>>> Fatal error in MPI_Comm_create: Other MPI error, error stack:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(600).................:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(comm=0x84000004, group=0xc800000e, new_comm=0x7fff629d5614)
>>>>>> failed
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(577).................:
>>>>>> MPIR_Comm_create_intra(241)..........:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid(799)..............:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid_sparse_group(1146): Cannot allocate context ID
>>>>>> because of fragmentation (2020/2048 free on this process; ignore_id=0)
>>>>>> Fatal error in MPI_Comm_create: Other MPI error, error stack:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(600).................:
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(comm=0x84000002, group=0xc8000020, new_comm=0x7fff639ae614)
>>>>>> failed
>>>>>> MPI_Comm_create(577).................:
>>>>>> MPIR_Comm_create_intra(241)..........:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid(799)..............:
>>>>>> MPIR_Get_contextid_sparse_group(1146): Cannot allocate context ID
>>>>>> because of fragmentation (2002/2048 free on this process; ignore_id=0
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there a way to fix that ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Reem
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> discuss mailing list discuss at mpich.org
>>>>>> To manage subscription options or unsubscribe:
>>>>>> https://lists.mpich.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> discuss mailing list discuss at mpich.org
>>>>> To manage subscription options or unsubscribe:
>>>>> https://lists.mpich.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Pavan Balaji
>>>> http://www.mcs.anl.gov/~balaji
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> discuss mailing list discuss at mpich.org
>>>> To manage subscription options or unsubscribe:
>>>> https://lists.mpich.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>
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>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> discuss mailing list
>>> discuss at mpich.org
>>> https://lists.mpich.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>
>>> End of discuss Digest, Vol 9, Issue 15
>>> **************************************
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> discuss mailing list discuss at mpich.org
>> To manage subscription options or unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.mpich.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
>
> --
> Jeff Hammond
> jeff.science at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> discuss mailing list discuss at mpich.org
> To manage subscription options or unsubscribe:
> https://lists.mpich.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
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